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TheGrammys have a problem with history.
Thats why the 2022 nominations in American roots came as a pleasant surprise.
Yola sang with British groups such as Massive Attack before beginning her solo career with the 2016 EPOrphan Offering.
When Vulture got all three together in mid-January, they were focused on projects outside their recording careers.
Its finally starting to bear some fruit, Russell says of their efforts.
It feels like were in a renaissance a Black renaissance in Nashville right now.
You kicked those doors open.
The landscape was vastly different.
I felt I was often a tokenized, light-skinned sort of,Oh, shes okay.
But Im also doing what I need to do.
Thats all I ever wanted.
Allison Russell:You are there.
You are foundational to all of it.
:Im over the moon.
My feed is full of Black women killing it, and Im just like,Ah!
:You kicked those doors open, Rhi.
In that uncomfortable space, and other people trying to tokenize you, you didnt allow that.
And you just watched us all onstage!
Yola:Thats where I draw the line at the person that called youMavis, Allie.
:Oh my Lord, I know.
Ive been called Mavis.
Ive signedRuthie FosterCDs accidentally.
And this is when I was 22 years old!
Y:Its gone past racism at that point.
:Thats the force of tokenization, turning us all into one homogenous mass.
Its always a white person telling me racism is over.
Its awhite country singersaying, Theres no racism in country music.
How would you know?
Because racism doesnt affect you negatively.
It affects you positively.
Its white-centering whether youre a white supremacist or not.
Y:Kind of why I wroteStand for Myselfas an album was that idea of monolithic Blackness.
I really wanted to break that down.
I dont think I realized that I was writing about that because some of those songs are older.
I was just constantly reflecting this idea of people trying to minimize me because Im dark.
And there was only ever two or three allowed at any one time.
And then they would say, Oh, weve already got a girl with a banjo.
Which is exactly why you were like, Okay, how about four Black ladies with banjos?
But its essential that we dont allow this tokenizing stuff to happen.
Im not going to go through what Rhiannon went through and then leave.
:We didnt have the critical mass at that point.
:You didnt have 2020 at that point.
I think there were people that genuinely believed that we were in a post-racial, postcolonial, no-more-racism world.
And guess what happened?
The band of sisters, we do it ourselves.
No one else will do it.
Why dont you not claim what is yours?
Despite its history as music of the people, the contemporary roots scene can be exclusive.
And I think thats a dangerous precedent to get into.
Being an other, you’ve got the option to feel that tug to do other genres.
Why dont you not claim what is yours?
Or at least try.
I was shocked that I got voted onto the board at all.
And that enabled me to start digging in to really try and make some change.
I believe that what Holly G atBlack Opryis doing is changing a system and so much for the better.
Youre talking about bigotry within a system.
Were going to invite Black people onto our stages.
And then very quickly doing things that make it clear that was skin deep.
Y:I tried to hold them over a barrel as much as I could.
Still, after being theirNextStagein October, Im like,Are we making moves?
Are we actually caring?And then for them to go and turn 180 degrees like that.
Because youve made your position known that youre a lip-service entity.
Maybe that was going to be me!
I was going to be their dark-skinned lady token.
:We have to be very clear about how systemic these things are.
Were talking hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years of a system.
Its not going to change overnight, but we can change a lot of things quickly.
I think all of these things are true at one time.
So what we have to figure out is, Where are they not budging?
Say, the Opry: Where do we cut our losses?
And we create something new.
When we see the steps, then we can meet with our steps.
And it gave me so much hope.
And what is happening now is giving me so much hope.
Exactly as you say, Rhiannon, just circumventing the parts that are not working.
Thats where I think we need to start looking at hiring.
We have to look at equity.
Who gets paid within these organizations?
What are steps if an institution like the Opry wants to make real change?
:And then do it.
Because they like to hire them … and then not do it.
Its the credibility of the organization.
This is what I mean.
Im not a totally naive person that thinks we can create a utopia overnight.
Im talking about consistent, multifaceted ways to reduce harm.
If one of us wins, we all win, right?
:We ultimately have to remember were talking about the Grammys.
Its a trophy for art, which is inherently flawed anyway.
But Ive been encouraged.
I have felt that there has been actual intent to change right now.
Whether it actually happens, its taking everybody to do that difference.
And its fucking hard.
I just think that we have to be committed.
We have to also talk about that for these youngsters coming up.
Im not a mother.
I still feel that.
Its something inherent in Black ladydom, just wanting it to be better for the kids.
And Rhiannons going, Yes!
Ill just stay in my room, and you do some of that annoying press as well.
:I mean, thats real change.
Y:It is.
But they would be like, So how are you giving back?
Im like,Im not on the property ladder.
I dont even have a home right now.What do you mean, How am I giving back?
:But you still did, Yola!
You didMusiCares, and you pulled Brandi and I in on that.
Watching Valerie with Carla Thomas on that stage.
Watching the Fisk Jubilee singers who are the reason Music City is Music City honored.
I was thrilled when they wontheir Grammy.
It didnt feel likeAmerican Idol.
It felt like community recognizing each other.
I dont care about the trophy.
It opened doors to her finding her producer now; it opened doors to her finding her label.
It was lifting her out of poverty.
Not having to work at fucking Target anymore.
:I just wish we didnt need that, I guess is what Im saying.
They shove all of these categories that are deeply rooted in tradition into this afternoon.
And then Kathy Griffin was there making these terrible jokes andmaking fun ofthese little Japanese women.
And I was sitting there going,Why am I here?
I have my daughter Im nursing her in this ball gown.
What the fuck am I doing here at this thing?
:That was your Mavis one, right?
:So her category is right before ours.
Then she gets up there, and it was like the world stopped.
Because shed never had a Grammy.
This is Mavis Staples.
Which is proving how wrong the Grammys are.
She starts to talk, and shes like, It took me a long time to get here.
Im going to take my time.
It was like a benediction.
- I was like,This is why were here.
or it can be true at the same time.
:It can be true at the same time.
And thats the inherent contradiction in that.
If one of us wins, we all win, right?
And the more that we can do that, I think the better we are.
:I have a problem with the Grammys only uplifting mainstream country on the broadcast.
The Opry is a different thing to me.
Thats why I was excited about debuting there at one point.
But Im now shifting my focus to Black Opry, to Americana, to folk.
You know, Im good.
Im like, Mickey Guyton, come on over.
Y:Not just on Twitter!
:And I would love forcountry radioto prove me wrong.
Y:Even them!
And I would love to see them announcing the American-roots categories on the mainstream broadcast.
Its not going to make it too much longer; they can do it.
They canget some artistson there who all the households that tune in have never gotten to hear or see.
They canceledthe Chicksfor Gods sake, you know?
Y:People could say, for example, But why Americana?
Or Why roots music?
People go, Your voice is so raspy and so rock and roll whats that all about?
Im like, I dont know, Sister Rosetta Tharpe?
The inventor of rock and roll.
Theyre like, Who?
Im like, You should be ashamed of yourself.
:First time I heard of Sister Rosetta Tharpe, I was in a CD shop in Scotland.
Youre like, No, its really not, buddy.
Or that paying a banjo is a white persons thing because its literallyAfrican, shut up.
:Im listening to us talk, guys, and Im so burnt out after this year.
I just want to go sit in the corner and play ukulele.
And we have to support each other.
Thats brilliant, and people are doing that.
Its also educating themselves about the music.
Its knowing who Sister Rosetta Tharpe is, actually being interested in the music that theyre fucking playing.
Why do you have a $30,000 mandolin if you dont know where the music came from?
We cannot continue to do this.
What that takes is everybody else stepping up.
Like, Thank you for doing that.
This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
