Into Itwith Sam Sanders
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Taylor Swift is out with a new album this weekcalledMidnights.
Its her tenth project, and it will most likely be a hit like all the other ones.
Read their conversation below and listen to the whole episode ofInto Itwherever you get your podcasts.
Theres this idea that shes performing damsel in distress and white vestal virgin.
Thats what country music is.
So I think these are sort of, like, two rival impulses within Taylor Swift.
I hear a constant pulling back in Taylor, a constantOh, how much can I say?
She has the strongest superego of any artist you know, any musical artist weve ever had.
Explain.Her music is so much about order and storytelling and creating the perfect frameworks and finding the perfect characters.
Shes got that intellectual side just constantly challenging her emotional side.
She doesnt seem that elusive; she just seems well managed internally.
Thats frustrating forus, though.
Maybe thats whats confusing.
And yet she does.
Shes very much aware of where and how she wants to fit into history.Yes, exactly.
You know, it seems her entire career, shes been quietly chasing Joni Mitchell.Oh?
Because she knows this is a clear lineage that she wants to establish.
Shes built an empire.
Im not sure, but shes gone pretty far in making the case for herself.
I find a lot of the conventional wisdom of Taylor not true or at least confusing.
I dont think shes petty.
I think she is embedding kinda serious messages in these very individualistic, seemingly confessional tales.
Because then it doesnt become petty anymore thats a major moment in any young persons life.
And I think she will go down as one of the greats, inarguably, but thats the reason.
Were all doing that now.
I mean, Ive always thought that a better comparison in some ways than Joni Mitchell isCarole King.
It very much connected with the exact place where womens liberation was at the time.
I asked her, Who is our biggest cyborg in popular culture, like human but better?
She was like, Oh, its Beyonce.
Its Beyonce.In my book,Good Booty, I wrote aboutBritney Spearsas a cyborg.
Her voice wasthevoice for that.
I bet she was aiming for something Britney-ish.
Thats something that maybe Taylor ultimately couldnt do.
She couldnt become just a vessel for technology; she always had to reassert her personality.
And yet it has enduring appeal across generations.
Taylors different in that you could argue thatRedto1989is herTapestryera, but she doesnt really have one mega-album like that.
But I do think she has a gift for making pop music her own.
Does that make her an AI?
Oh my gosh, shes a cyborg thats where were ending up.
Give me a video, Ill dance in it.
They talked about how she had the perfect body to design these clothes for.
I cant think of one moment in her career where Taylor would be associated with sacrifice.
Different people, right?
But we still do this thing where Taylor is 15.
Taylor doesnt have a child.
And in our patriarchal society, when does a woman change?
When she becomes a mother.
We dont know how to accept childless women as adults.
I just always go back to high school with Taylor.
We know shes lived a little, that shes had some wild nights.
Give us a wild night.
Ill give you a cigarette.
Ill light it up for you.
Put me in a lyric.
What is the musical equivalent of that for someone like Taylor?
OnRenaissance, of course Beyonce is still present, but she gave the spotlight to others.
She even samplesBig Freediaagain.
Again, her making of a self has been her artistic project.
And I dont mean that in an insulting way.
We could think of her as a self-portrait artist, the painter who paints himself over and over again.
And who is in the frame if its not Taylor?
This interview has been condensed and edited.
