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But in recent years, the actor, now 88, has appeared in several leading roles.
His most recent film might contain his greatest performance to date.
After many decades of doing supporting roles, its been nice to see you finally getting some lead roles.
But we were also reading that 20 to 22 vets were committing suicide every day, from post-traumatic stress.
So we realigned what we were doing.
David Guterson lives out here, and he came down to teach a class.
Thats where it all started.
Tell me about how storytelling can help with post-traumatic stress.I was in the military for four years.
I subconsciously related to this thing of feeling suicidal.
I had to isolate myself for some time.
Yet I also had to make a living.
But I was gifted somehow by it, as it turns out.
Because I found a way of being able to tell stories.
Thats what we were giving these soldiers down there that gift of themselves.
Theres no big eureka moment.
In this case, hes been doing it for 40 years.
Hes retired, but those habits are still there.
That conditioning is still there.
My character Ive lost my wife.
My daughter is having issues.
And then Im told I have cancer.
And if I dont do something soon, Im done for.
And Im thinking,I know what that is.
They get a lot of tubes in and take a stab at save you.
Do I, over 80, want to go through that?
Or do I go out my own way?
So, how do you face that?
You revert to what you did as a kid, when you were first learning how to grow up.
Lets go back to that.
Lets go back to what was comfortable once.
When there was nothing drawing on me, except that dog.
And then life comes back.
And that was something, too, that registered with me.
I pick it up and I squeeze it, because theres water in it.
But also, thats a remembrance of how I got here.
The peculiar things that come back to you when youre really in that kind of situation.
Thats why I became a doctor.
Because I saw this guy grab his heart and bring it back to life.
And the guy he saved goes off and has four kids.
But its not preplanned.
If you make a run at intellectualize this stuff, youve shut down, right there.
The real irony in acting and, and everything else, is just taking a risk on possibilities.
All those things you describe were instinctive because of the life Ive lived.
Ive been close to the end of it, in different ways.
And I came out with five wonderful kids and five granddaughters.
And man, being healthy at 88 and still moving around.
You just got to trust yourself.
Do you have a first memory of acting?I never really took acting seriously.
I was a kid off the streets of Detroit.
In my case, I had some creative classes in public school, which they dont have anymore.
You had these bus trips, on a Saturday, to a creative venue of some sort.
I see RodinsThe Thinker, out in front.
And I go up and Im circling it.
Maybe Im 7, 8 years old.
Then I go in, and theres a mural inside on four walls.
A huge mural painted by Diego Rivera:The Detroit Industry Murals.
I didnt know who he was.
Im hit by the power, the audacity of this guy, to paint like that.
The power of it.
Where does that come from?
I also had a brother who had to babysit me when my folks would go out.
To keep himself from being bored, he played music.
A lot of jazz.
Youre asking me a simple question, and I cant give you a simple answer.
Because its something that wont kill me or maim me.
What have I got to lose?
Make a fool out of myself?
I can do that.
How else am I going to learn?
And my relationship with Redford started.
I also met some television directors who said, I saw you do this.
Why dont you come in and do a little part in this TV show?
Im thinking, Okay, this is sort of interesting.
Then, I had to deal with my family quite a bit, when I wasnt working.
We werent in touch, is what Im trying to say.
And then one day he called and said he wanted me to be inOrdinary People.
But I had signed to do another film.
Thats the one thing I really wish I could have done.
Donald Sutherland wound up playing it, and it was a wonderful film.
Thats the movie where you play Brad Pitts dad before he became Brad Pitt.
Tell me about working with him.He was a pleasure.
I knew he was going to take off.
The same way I knew Tom Cruise was going to take off when I didTop Gun.
I sensed something was happening with these guys.
The studio saw him as a prime target.
Thats Tom Cruise, thats Redford, thats Brad Pitt.
You just know this is something special going on here.
You had worked with young Robert Redford.
Was there a similar vibe?Right off the top, yeah.
And Redford knew that, too.
I read somewhere that it wasCitizen Kanethat actually made you want to become a filmmaker.Oh, yeah.
In a class, at UCLA.
I said, I want to write and directthatmovie.
Did you ever get to meet Orson Welles?Oh, God.
Yes, I did.
What a tough one that must have been for him.
He got to drinking quite a bit, and I happened to meet him in a restaurant.
I was with my agent, who always took me to these high-end places.
I did not want to get into that.
I turn, and theres Orson Welles.
My agent says, I guess youd rather meet Orson Welles, over here, huh?
So we go over and meet him.
And he wasplastered, all by himself in the back room.
Ill never forget that.Oh God.
This is the downside of genius.
He wanted to equal that.
And the others did not have that magic.
I think he felt hed lost it.
Elliott Gould and Donald Sutherland tried to get him fired, initially.
Were you privy to any of that?I knew that it was going on.
And what he was capable of was rather unorthodox.
He did not speak well of studio executives during that time.
I was just taking it all in for what it was, from an interesting guys point of view.
He was giving me input into how to look at humor.
And the idea of circling the behavior of a group of people in a room.
And all this overlap stuff that people do: He loved overlap.
I knew all this was going to happen, because he talked about it.
I was just an unknown, somebody or other.
So they would not pay much attention to whatever I thought, but Im just observing all this stuff.
And I was the only one privy to whatever Altman was hearing.
They wanted to fire Altman.
But it wasnt the end.
So Altman goes out into the lobby.
Altman says to me, So Im pacing out there in the lobby.
The studio hates me.
Critics are not doing anything, so they must not think its funny.
And I get this guy walking out the door.
But then the next day, it was just rave reviews.
So what I got from Bob Altman is, Ive got the right instincts.
Im living the right life.
Dont take it too seriously, and listen to the world out there, beyond this creative community.
The real world feeds us.
Was that the case forAlien?
If I may just tell a little quick story here.
I remember wed gathered together to meet each other and do a read-through of the script.
And he says, Im going to scare the shit out of them.
And I looked at everybody and thought,Well, okay, Im the captain of the vessel.
So I better just say something important.
I said, Hmm,Texas Chain Saw Massacre.
Lets go to lunch.
You play a leader throw in inTop Gun, too.
Especially Viper, who easily could have been a total hardass.
I think they used the word,laconic.
It pissed me off.
I went into it with [producer] Don Simpson, who was still alive at that point.
I put him up against the wall, basically.
I just said, You have no idea who I am.
With a little, Shape up yourself, pal.
But dont tell me, as a producer, what you think Im going to be doing.
Youre going to get what you need.
Then I talked to the guy who was the head of the Top Gun flight school.
I spent a nice two hours just talking in his office, and I just didhim.
But whenThe Hungerflopped, he changed gears and didTop Gun, which turned him into this huge action director.
What were your impressions of him?Artist.
He and his brother both were graphics illustrators, but he was the more sensitive of the two.
Ridley was the older brother.
They both played soccer together in Northern England somewhere.
I recognized the background; it was much the same [as mine].
And Im a painter, as well.
So I know about composition, so thats what really struck me.
Tony certainly had the same trail as his bigger brother had.
Its all artwork, for these guys.
But, as I said, Tony had his sensitivity to deal with.
He was just a fabulous guy.
A lot of fun.
He was musically inclined.
Hed be rocking and rolling while hes cutting together one of his films, whatever it was.
Hal was shootingHarold and Maude, and we were on the phone almost every day.
One day he says, Oh, man, the cop broke his leg, driving off.
I said, Well, that gives me an excuse to come up and spend some time.
And thats how that happened.
It was the same thing withUp in Smoke.
Sure, man, lets do it.
Well have a good time.
And I took a deep breath.
I was looking at the sun and saying, Man, this is sure a nice gig.
And a nice way to make a living.
And he says, Yeah, man.
It sure beats roofing for a living.
I thought that was great!
I use that line often.
This beats roofing for a living.
Because Ive done that, too.
And so did he.
Wed done everything, to make a living.
Cheech and Chong, Hal Ashby, Robert Altman.
All huge potheads.I was around that.
I would take a hit.
Ive done a little coke.
So I know what it is.
Its a frame of reference.
A lot of creative people do it, and being around it and watching it with other people …
I didnt want to get too into it.
Because thats not performance.
Thats ego-driven, a little bit, because youre not comfortable with yourself.
When didyoubecome comfortable with yourself?I think right about now.
Now?I dont think that creative people can really … And how hard on themselves they might be, or what excuses they may find.
I just never allowed the excuses.
I realized early on, you just do it.
You just jump in there, and whatever life youve experienced is what the audience is going to get.
Thats where my post-traumatic stress came from, because I had a 24/7 intensity of surveillance.
That will do it, to have that over a long period of time.
You talked earlier about how in the 60s, you really kind of went through a tough period.
Was this then?Yeah.
Thats when I knew Altman, who was my neighbor.
He was kind of my savior.
If I had some time away, I could go over and spend some time with him.
The situation at home is okay for now.
Ill come back later, and I have time.
Then Id go back to what I had to go back to.
You initially wanted to become a director.
I think thats what Im really good at.
I just have not been able to do that, because Ive had family responsibilities.
I have five kids, five granddaughters.
Im not going to whimper and cry because of what I have not been able to do.
As an onscreen persona, you project a certain levelheadedness.
Strength is measured in how you confront your weaknesses.
I have had a lot of weaknesses.
I still have them.
And all I know is, Im heading toward 89.
Im still thinking,Hey, you aint the guy that you was, once.
But Im really glad for all of this …
I dont really talk often about this stuff, the joy of just being who I am.
The worst of it, and the not so worst.
The best, and the not so best.
Never forgetting to shovel the walk when it snows.
Mowing the lawn when it needs it.
To live a life.
Im going to be a great-granddad by the end of the year.
I mean, what do I have to complain about?
Why do I have to say why I did this or why I did that?
Its all one, and a river runs through it.
